Curse

draxynnic · Sep 27, 2009, 01:55 PM // 13:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

They will be in contact much more than you think. How long does it take to run from the edge of the aggro circle to melee range? I remember reading from Ensign's article that the answer is about 3 seconds, and that's not counting a speedboost. Against this, every spell a caster casts has a 0.75s aftercast. This gives the caster two spells max before the melee gets there (and snares / cripple etc can be removed). There will be cases where the enemies are so far away that a melee cannot safely run up to them, but there are very few indeed.

It's not just getting into contact initially, it's staying in contact. When the party's total DPS is somewhere around or over the 500 mark, non-boss targets tend not to stay up for long unless they have something to protect against that damage (which tends, even in PvE, to be something that stops physicals dishing out damage more often than something that stops spell damage, Shiro'ken and Margonite monks notwithstanding...and there ARE ways to deal with Spell Breaker in a pinch, and were even before the days of nornshout spikes).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

You can call Warriors the tip of the spear and whoever is applying Judge's Insight etc to be dealing the damage, but the argument is the same. Can you think up a competitive teambuild that doesn't use the "support / cleanse physicals so they can deal damage" idea that can keep up with the kill speed of a team that does?

Well, I understand Cry of Pain was popular...

Mind you, that got nerfed. However, that was also a degenerate team build, while the physicals-as-tip-of-the-spear requires and rewards both team coordination and variety.

Still, one thing that's been in my mind... you're beating up this "Melee physicals can do OMGWTFBBQ damage" routine, when in my experience in anything other than coordinated team builds, you generally had better things to do with your PvE slots as a Warrior than Asuran Scan. Maybe it's just me.

The other thing that strikes my mind is that you're claiming melees are that much more powerful than ranged physicals. Paragons I'll accept, but Paragon damage is more intended to be there to assist rather than being DPS machines. Rangers, though... with all of these effects that deal bonus damage per hit, and with the number of skills Rangers have for putting lots of arrows in the air in a short time (doubleshot, tripleshot, Barrage, Volley, Incendiary, even Needling once they drop below 50%... and yes, I know you can't have all those on one bar...) I wonder if the damage of an equivalently buffed-up Ranger is actually that far behind. Or even behind at all.

Now, maybe Asuran Scan and some of the damage-buffers need a nerf, but the professions themselves? Nerfing them to be "balanced" under optimum conditions for their use means they'll be seriously underpowered everywhere else.

Terek Zelta · Sep 27, 2009, 06:01 PM // 18:01

If I could shake your hand, I would, Draxynnic. Everything you've been saying is right on the mark. I left this thread before, but I want to highlight some of the points you've made, because as far as I'm concerned, you've pretty much ended this argument in your last post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Mind you, that got nerfed. However, that was also a degenerate team build, while the physicals-as-tip-of-the-spear requires and rewards both team coordination and variety.

Can it get any clearer? We've been saying this stuff since the start of the thread. That's the game.

Discord plows through PVE too. So does triple ele, at least in NM. I also know non-fire based elementalist teams who run through HM with no problems.

Quote:

Still, one thing that's been in my mind... you're beating up this "Melee physicals can do OMGWTFBBQ damage" routine, when in my experience in anything other than coordinated team builds, you generally had better things to do with your PvE slots as a Warrior than Asuran Scan. Maybe it's just me.

Another excellent point. I sure as heck don't run Asuran Scan. None of the warriors I know run Asuran Scan. Like ever. I hate its aftercast delay, and you just don't need it to be effective. It's easy to take Asuran Scan to the MoD and say, "Oh yeah, I hit 2XX damage, that's imba," but there are better PVE skills to use, because the enemy quality is rarely so high that you need that much damage on a single target. Most warriors would be better off bringing a utility.

Personally, the top three PVE skills I use the most are: Brawling Headbutt, Whirlwind Attack and SY, in that order, and I often use them all in the same bar.

Quote:

The other thing that strikes my mind is that you're claiming melees are that much more powerful than ranged physicals. Paragons I'll accept, but Paragon damage is more intended to be there to assist rather than being DPS machines. Rangers, though... with all of these effects that deal bonus damage per hit, and with the number of skills Rangers have for putting lots of arrows in the air in a short time (doubleshot, tripleshot, Barrage, Volley, Incendiary, even Needling once they drop below 50%... and yes, I know you can't have all those on one bar...) I wonder if the damage of an equivalently buffed-up Ranger is actually that far behind. Or even behind at all.

Rangers can keep up with a lot of buffs. I remember a thread on it a long time ago, with some ranger hitting 200+ DPS with a bow and Asuran Scan.

Should we nerf elementalists because you can stack By Ural's Hammer, Intensity and EBSoH with cracked armor for high damage too? What elementalist do you know that runs all that? Why do most elementalists not run all that? Think about it.

The reason I left this thread was because it's no longer about whether warriors are overpowered or not. It's about PVE skills, and some of you refuse to see that. Not because you can't, but because you choose not to, for whatever reason.

Jeydra · Sep 28, 2009, 01:27 AM // 01:27

@draxynnic - I don't think you appreciate just how much consistent DPS a fleshed-out physical-based team can do. Perhaps you should look at it first-hand. A few physicals, Strength of Honor, Judge's Insight (maybe), Honor ward (maybe), Orders (maybe). Lots of characters to remove antimelee with. If you can't do this kind of build then leave me your IGN so I can contact you next time I play something like this.

@Terek Zelta -

There's a thread in Services Offered offering to run anyone through the 26 PvE titles while AFK. Means you can run 7 players and still roll through HM. Irrelevant. You can run non-Fire Elementalist-based teams in the easier areas of HM maybe, but no matter where you go with them I highly doubt you can match clear speeds of physical-based teams.

Regarding Asuran Scan - see: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10403204

Show me the thread if a Ranger can hit 200+ DPS with a Bow.

Elementalists cannot match damage output from a physical. If you don't believe me, try it. Try it on the Master of Damage (who has 60 AL and doesn't kite, yeye). If you can reach half the DPS of a buffed physical, I'll be impressed.

What's the difference between Warriors being overpowered and the PvE skills they use being overpowered?

Improvavel · Sep 28, 2009, 04:21 AM // 04:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Another note is that if a warrior is doing 100 on auto attacks

Is he?

I thought orders, soh and gdw were skills too, took skill slots and energy...

In the first level of that HoS we did together yesterday, using my warrior with a WE axe I was half the time blinded, and I was using both a shield and a rune -20% blindness... And on the other levels I wasn't doing 100 damage on attacks much less auto-attacks...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

@draxynnic - I don't think you appreciate just how much consistent DPS a fleshed-out physical-based team can do. Perhaps you should look at it first-hand. A few physicals, Strength of Honor, Judge's Insight (maybe), Honor ward (maybe), Orders (maybe). Lots of characters to remove antimelee with. If you can't do this kind of build then leave me your IGN so I can contact you next time I play something like this.

What's the difference between Warriors being overpowered and the PvE skills they use being overpowered?

Because a team with ice imps, a SF tank, RoJs, FoCs, CoP (even after nerf) can do the same damage or more damage?

There is a big difference - warriors aren't overpowered because their high damage is countered by their movement disadvantage, which will lower their damage and because melee/physical counters are rampant on PvE world. Sure the counters can be countered, but they cost skill slots, energy and time from the OTHER PARTY MEMBERS.

Yes buffed physicals are very strong, but pretty much a physical team only has the physical members for damage...

So a typical team is 2 back liners - and the ER back liners are very useful as they can bring GDW - Orders, MoP-Nuker and 4 physicals.

Melee bars are quite full - warriors need 3-4 attacks, 1 ias + speed buff (although DM will reduce that to 1), AS and some 1-2 skills.

People keep talking about utility, but that is BS - the only significant utility a warrior will bring in PvE is SY! But a simple caster with a spear/wand and SY! will spam SY! more than a warrior.

Sigh...

Talk about hex removal in PvE and people say on these forums "it is pointless to remove hexes because they are just reapplied" but then it is so easy to keep the physicals clean...

Yes, physicals teams are powerful and they should be the most powerful because they are the ones that require higher team work and synergy.

For some reason spike builds are considered lame in PvP...

Yes PvE-only skills/consumables take stuff out of the proportion, but it does so to any damn team... Remove those PvE-only skills damage boosters and the warrior damage fall down by loads, the same way if you remove the PvE-only skills caster damage fall down by loads...

Desert Rose · Sep 28, 2009, 11:10 AM // 11:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Elementalists cannot match damage output from a physical. If you don't believe me, try it. Try it on the Master of Damage (who has 60 AL and doesn't kite, yeye). If you can reach half the DPS of a buffed physical, I'll be impressed.

Eles, like all casters, were never intended for dishing out good DPS so it's a big surprise they suck at this discipline. But they don't need to be able to produce a high DPS value to surpass melees in killing speed, thanks to all the buffs casters received over last years they are able to spike down dozens of mosters within seconds.
I've seen a 44min DoA-HM-fullrun that used 3-4 SF-Eles for damage (with heavy use of PvE-skills). I've cleared Drazach Thicket in under 30 minutes with two 600-teams (2 humans + 4 heroes). Even before SF-sins a UW-SC could be done in about 30 minutes. Can a physical-based team beat these times?

Nowadays only people that want a challenge use a physical-based team anymore, tank'n'spank and SCs are far easier and faster.

Terek Zelta · Sep 28, 2009, 11:56 AM // 11:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Show me the thread if a Ranger can hit 200+ DPS with a Bow.

I'll do something better and teach you how to do it, then I'm leaving this thread again, 'kay?

The person used a combination of Triple Shot with max rank, Asuran Scan and By Ural's Hammer. I can't find the thread, or else I would've linked you to it before. Does Guru delete threads after being inactive for a period of time?

If you want a team setup, try this: two separate sources of Mark of Pain, possibly Barbs if you want, and two rangers with Triple Shot, Dual Shot, and Barrage. This isn't even including PVE skills, but we can. EBSoH + Asuran Scan + By Ural's Hammer + Great Dwarf Weapon. It's unique to rangers too, because of triple shot, and Barrage with GDW? Let's nerf rangers.

Of course this doesn't work as well in practice as it does on paper. Are you beginning to understand? Probably not, right?

Quote:

Elementalists cannot match damage output from a physical. If you don't believe me, try it. Try it on the Master of Damage (who has 60 AL and doesn't kite, yeye). If you can reach half the DPS of a buffed physical, I'll be impressed.

They do FoW.

[Edit: Adding something.]

How can you not get that the Master of Damage is worthless and almost completely inaccurate? How can you not get that elementalists are AoE and not single target? How can you not get that elementalists are not used for damage in HM?

The game is not all about big damage numbers. If anything, utility > raw damage.

Quote:

What's the difference between Warriors being overpowered and the PvE skills they use being overpowered?

Everything. Read the thread.

Jeydra · Sep 28, 2009, 01:13 PM // 13:13

@Improvavel -

Did your ER Elementalists maintain Purifying Veil?

Physical hate exists, yet isn't as common as you seem to think. Take today's Zaishen quests for example. Zaishen mission is Against The Charr, with foes:

Charr Axemaster - no melee hate
Charr Blademaster - Deadly Riposte blocks one attack with 10s cooldown
Charr Mender - no melee hate (unless you count Prot Spirit, which however is pretty much everything-hate)
Charr Hexreaper - Faintheartedness
Charr Dominator - no melee hate
Charr Flameshielder - Aegis can be Rended / Rigor'ed
Charr Prophet - no melee hate
Mantid Queen - no melee hate
Mantid Nymph - Crippling Anguish (Images of Remorse doesn't count)
Mantid Digger - Dust Cloak (Blinds 4s)

Do you think the sum of all these monsters reduce melee damage by 50%? Actually somewhat more than 50% since unhindered melee can hit >250 DPS, while the best casters hit 100 DPS (if they even hit 100 DPS).

Yes physical teams are powerful and I wouldn't mind them being slightly more powerful than caster-based teams because they require more teamwork and synergy - but the difference at present is too large to ignore. It is more than "slightly more powerful". It is a LOT more than "slightly more powerful".

Sure GDW / Strength of Honor / Judge's Insight etc are all skills that take energy to maintain yada yada, but they can be applied and should be applied, since if you do anything else your party deals less damage than they would otherwise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terek Zelta

The person used a combination of Triple Shot with max rank, Asuran Scan and By Ural's Hammer. I can't find the thread, or else I would've linked you to it before. Does Guru delete threads after being inactive for a period of time?

If you want a team setup, try this: two separate sources of Mark of Pain, possibly Barbs if you want, and two rangers with Triple Shot, Dual Shot, and Barrage. This isn't even including PVE skills, but we can. EBSoH + Asuran Scan + By Ural's Hammer + Great Dwarf Weapon. It's unique to rangers too, because of triple shot, and Barrage with GDW? Let's nerf rangers.

Of course this doesn't work as well in practice as it does on paper. Are you beginning to understand? Probably not, right?

I'll have to wait for a chance to give the team combination a try. I do not know how well it'll work. If it does 200 DPS for every Ranger in the team in practice then yes, I'll say Rangers are overpowered. By the way your team combination has two Necros, two Rangers and two backline I presume, which leaves two slots. What are they?

Far as I know Guru threads are there, but you'll have to adjust which threads you can see (look at lower left corner while tabbing through pages - display threads from the beginning to find them all).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terek Zelta

How can you not get that the Master of Damage is worthless and almost completely inaccurate? How can you not get that elementalists are AoE and not single target? How can you not get that elementalists are not used for damage in HM?

The game is not all about big damage numbers. If anything, utility > raw damage.

Hey, you were the one who wrote above this:

"Should we nerf elementalists because you can stack By Ural's Hammer, Intensity and EBSoH with cracked armor for high damage too? What elementalist do you know that runs all that? Why do most elementalists not run all that? Think about it."

Fact is, even with all the buffs up Elementalists cannot match the DPS of physicals. For certain as well Elementalist damage in HM, in practice, is lower than what the Master of Damage says. And judging from this post, you know it already, yet wrote the above. Explain, because all I see is contradiction.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desert Rose

Eles, like all casters, were never intended for dishing out good DPS so it's a big surprise they suck at this discipline. But they don't need to be able to produce a high DPS value to surpass melees in killing speed, thanks to all the buffs casters received over last years they are able to spike down dozens of mosters within seconds.
I've seen a 44min DoA-HM-fullrun that used 3-4 SF-Eles for damage (with heavy use of PvE-skills). I've cleared Drazach Thicket in under 30 minutes with two 600-teams (2 humans + 4 heroes). Even before SF-sins a UW-SC could be done in about 30 minutes. Can a physical-based team beat these times?

Nowadays only people that want a challenge use a physical-based team anymore, tank'n'spank and SCs are far easier and faster.

Shadow Form is far and away the most overpowered of all PvE skills at the moment, so don't bring that up, k?

By the way I think tank'n'spank is pretty slow compared to playing physicals, if only because of the time it takes aggro to settle.

Desert Rose · Sep 28, 2009, 02:26 PM // 14:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Shadow Form is far and away the most overpowered of all PvE skills at the moment, so don't bring that up, k?

SF-Ele = Ele with Searing Flames

Quote:

By the way I think tank'n'spank is pretty slow compared to playing physicals, if only because of the time it takes aggro to settle.

It may feel so, but it isn't.

Terek Zelta · Sep 29, 2009, 12:27 AM // 00:27

And I'm back. This thread is like crack to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I'll have to wait for a chance to give the team combination a try. I do not know how well it'll work. If it does 200 DPS for every Ranger in the team in practice then yes, I'll say Rangers are overpowered. By the way your team combination has two Necros, two Rangers and two backline I presume, which leaves two slots. What are they?

Anything you want.

Quote:

Far as I know Guru threads are there, but you'll have to adjust which threads you can see (look at lower left corner while tabbing through pages - display threads from the beginning to find them all).

Ah hah. I see! Search the thread then if you really want to see it. Should be in the ranger forum.

Quote:

Hey, you were the one who wrote above this:

"Should we nerf elementalists because you can stack By Ural's Hammer, Intensity and EBSoH with cracked armor for high damage too? What elementalist do you know that runs all that? Why do most elementalists not run all that? Think about it."

Fact is, even with all the buffs up Elementalists cannot match the DPS of physicals. For certain as well Elementalist damage in HM, in practice, is lower than what the Master of Damage says. And judging from this post, you know it already, yet wrote the above. Explain, because all I see is contradiction.

Because you were talking Master of Damage. You can't compare a warrior doing 200+ DPS on the MoD and an elementalist doing damage in HM. On the MoD, an elementalist should very easily approach warrior DPS. It's seriously not that hard. I say "approach" because I can't test it myself, but I have tested raw damage output, without PVE skills, and the damage is mostly the same.

In HM, it's a different story, but warriors are no more overpowered than a good earth warder, which by the way, often keeps me from having to do any line backing whatsoever and lets me get right down to smashing the enemy's backline.

The thing is, is that you're talking about warriors having crazy 200+ DPS on the MoD, and when we discuss elementalists, suddenly we're talking about HM? It doesn't work that way.

Either way, your logic here is flawed. That's what everyone is trying to make you realize.

If you want to do damage in HM, you play a physical class, or a class that does armor ignoring damage like necromancer. It's that simple. Elementalists are utility and defense, and they are extremely good at it. No one's arguing that warriors' DPS is decidedly much higher than elementalists' in HM. That also doesn't make warriors unbalanced. That's the way the game is setup.

Jeydra · Sep 29, 2009, 01:06 AM // 01:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terek Zelta

Because you were talking Master of Damage. You can't compare a warrior doing 200+ DPS on the MoD and an elementalist doing damage in HM. On the MoD, an elementalist should very easily approach warrior DPS. It's seriously not that hard. I say "approach" because I can't test it myself, but I have tested raw damage output, without PVE skills, and the damage is mostly the same.

Try it, post screenshots and if you can reach 50% of what a buffed physical can do I'll be impressed. Since you seem convinced that an Elementalist can approach Warrior damage vs. the MoD (which is heavily biased towards Elementalist damage), try it and convince me. Either go 1) consistent DPS, which means over at least a minute, or 2) spike DPS, which means over like 5 seconds.

You seem convinced an Elementalist can approach Warrior damage vs. the Master of Damage when I'm totally convinced the Warrior is still light-years ahead. I argue that Warrior damage is way superior to Elementalist damage not because of HM armor, but because of the nature Warrior damage is.

By the way you got to link me the thread so I can search it.

PS: Earth Warders are terrible; in coordinated teams you screw all these niceties and plain take the (mega) damage to the enemy and roll them over with it.

@Desert Rose - share some screenshots? With times in them?

Life Bringing · Sep 29, 2009, 02:12 AM // 02:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

By the way I think tank'n'spank is pretty slow compared to playing physicals, if only because of the time it takes aggro to settle.

Say what? Tank and spank destroys any physicalway records.

Quote:

@Desert Rose - share some screenshots? With times in them?

Ill get screenshots of shitterflames DoA when i can get in contact with my euro friend. They achieved 44 minutes with it. Until i have a chance to grab those screens, ill leave you with the builds that [agro] used to get the time.
http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/User:Andy/...Shitter_Flames

Improvavel · Sep 29, 2009, 03:13 AM // 03:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

@Improvavel -

Did your ER Elementalists maintain Purifying Veil?

Maybe the problem is that there shouldn't be casters maintaining purifying veil without serious energy problems...

Quote:

Physical hate exists, yet isn't as common as you seem to think. Take today's Zaishen quests for example. Zaishen mission is Against The Charr, with foes:

Against the charr is probably one of the easiest missions in the game - if you can count any mission as hard...

Still, without PvE-only skills the damage of physicals drop considerably... Judge's insight btw doesn't work very well with barbs, orders and mop.

Quote:

Do you think the sum of all these monsters reduce melee damage by 50%? Actually somewhat more than 50% since unhindered melee can hit >250 DPS, while the best casters hit 100 DPS (if they even hit 100 DPS).

I wasn't hitting for 250, maybe because without a full or almost full human team, physicals aren't as easy to buff or it is as efficient to buff physical AI.

Quote:

Yes physical teams are powerful and I wouldn't mind them being slightly more powerful than caster-based teams because they require more teamwork and synergy - but the difference at present is too large to ignore. It is more than "slightly more powerful". It is a LOT more than "slightly more powerful".

Nope they aren't - FoC, CoP, RoJ and even some AoE regular skills are the most damaging vs AI.

Quote:

Sure GDW / Strength of Honor / Judge's Insight etc are all skills that take energy to maintain yada yada, but they can be applied and should be applied, since if you do anything else your party deals less damage than they would otherwise.

Try doing the cave of DoA with a physical team and tell me how easy it is compared to a team of casters.

Roll a warrior, play without PvE only skills and roll a caster and play without PvE-only skills. Tell me which is easier. Then play them with PvE-only skills.

Jeydra · Sep 29, 2009, 08:26 AM // 08:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

Ill get screenshots of shitterflames DoA when i can get in contact with my euro friend. They achieved 44 minutes with it. Until i have a chance to grab those screens, ill leave you with the builds that [agro] used to get the time.
http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/User:Andy/...Shitter_Flames

Recalling Perma tanks ...

I prefer comparing builds that don't include Shadow Form. Try Obsidian tanking vs. the times given in this thread, for example: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10403204

@Improvavel - I agree with you that ER Elementalists are overpowered. But they exist. You have to compare the sum total of everything, not just the single case. In the same way, for certain the DPS of Warriors drop dramatically without PvE skills (and so does the DPS of casters; Warriors still have FGJ! + DSlash + PvE version of Strength of Honour), but the PvE skills exist and you have to take them into account.

If you can show that FoC / CoP / RoJ / whatever, plus a non-Perma tank, plus killing all the stuff that leads to the booty (not running through) and not splitting (since most teams do not split) leads to faster times than massing physicals then I'll concede I'm wrong. I'd also say no 600s, but then I suppose 600s is a reasonable way of playing in some areas like CoF where they do not actually skip anything (but not DTSC).

PS: If Against The Charr is easy and lacking in melee hate, then what was the Arbor whastisname ZB on that same day?

qvtkc · Sep 29, 2009, 09:31 AM // 09:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

Say what? Tank and spank destroys any physicalway records.

lol no

Ok, maybe in DoA, though wasn't there some devilishly efficient paragon team for that?

Tenebrae · Sep 29, 2009, 09:52 AM // 09:52

I dont know how this guy doesnt give up. Its like talking to a wall , even 5 or 6 ppl saying the same and he doesnt back up. Now so spotless that he is going on the "warriors arent balanced because they X and <insert random caster prof> cant do X as well as he does" argument. Theres no PvP here , you cant balance classes by looking to the remaining rest and NO , you CANT balance a whole class depending on some PvE skills wich I REMIND YOU most of them are from EOTN.

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Now, maybe Asuran Scan and some of the damage-buffers need a nerf, but the professions themselves? Nerfing them to be "balanced" under optimum conditions for their use means they'll be seriously underpowered everywhere else.

This pretty much pwns . Nerf W because of Asuran Scan or <insert pve skill> yeah , pretty fair. Now ppl that doesnt have some chapter or even eotn will see its class turned to BS just because someone Qq.... i mean complains about <insert melee class> being overpowered. Seriously , rage blinds some ppl to a point that understanding its impossible.

Jeydra · Sep 29, 2009, 10:17 AM // 10:17

Lol, I dare you to write here that nerfing Asuran Scan is not also a nerf to Warriors. Therefore Warriors are overpowered -> nerf Warriors = PvE skills are overpowered -> nerf PvE skills, both result in the same thing.

Speaking of which, I'd be perfectly happy with a nerf to Asuran Scan. In fact, earlier in this thread, I'd already listed the four major skills I think ANet should nerf: Asuran Scan, For Great Justice, Strength of Honour and Save Yourselves. All four of them are major options / staples for Warriors, and nerfing any of them will also hit Warriors hard. Of course I'm not talking about reducing Sword damage to 10-14 or anything like that. If you insist on calling a nerf to Asuran Scan a nerf to PvE skills, fine with me. Now if you have any reason to not nerf the four skills I wrote above, give them.

Some people get buried in semantics so much, they're oblivious to anything else.

PS: It is only in PvE that you can balance classes by looking at the remainder. Don't believe me, go to the PvP forums and say that since Dervishes / Assassins are seeing a lot less play than Warriors at the moment, they should be buffed - and see what kind of results you'd reap.

M @ T · Sep 29, 2009, 10:43 AM // 10:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Lol, I dare you to write here that nerfing Asuran Scan is not also a nerf to Warriors. Therefore Warriors are overpowered -> nerf Warriors = PvE skills are overpowered -> nerf PvE skills, both result in the same thing.

Saying that Warriors are OP because of PvE skills is retarded. Asuran scan is a U.N.I.V.E.R.S.A.L. skill. Nerfing a class is not the same as nerfing PvE skills.

Like I said in a previous post which was deleted for some reason, knowing oneself is hard for some people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Speaking of which, I'd be perfectly happy with a nerf to Asuran Scan. In fact, earlier in this thread, I'd already listed the four major skills I think ANet should nerf: Asuran Scan, For Great Justice, Strength of Honour and Save Yourselves. All four of them are major options / staples for Warriors, and nerfing any of them will also hit Warriors hard. If you insist on calling a nerf to Asuran Scan a nerf to PvE skills, fine with me. Now if you have any reason to not nerf the four skills I wrote above, give them.

Remove all PvE skills, it doesn't matter, actually, IMO its better to do so. FGJ is fine as it is, but even if you make it the same as PvP it doesn't change many things. It is more powerfull for Paragons then Warriors since you are talkign about spamming SY here. SoH has NOTHING to do with Warriors and this thread. It's not a Warrior skill. SY is a /W skill that pretty much all melee&ranged attack class uses. Is it OP? Yes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

PS: It is only in PvE that you can balance classes by looking at the remainder. Don't believe me, go to the PvP forums and say that since Dervishes / Assassins are seeing a lot less play than Warriors at the moment, they should be buffed - and see what kind of results you'd reap.

Buffing Dervs&Sins =! nerfing Wars.

Desert Rose · Sep 29, 2009, 10:54 AM // 10:54

Search this thread for screens.
Example: Deep 15min

Jeydra · Sep 29, 2009, 11:30 AM // 11:30

A 15-minute The Deep? How was that done? I suspect a loophole of some kind (i.e. it avoids having to clear all enemies on the way there), considering how Shadow Meld is on the bar.

Haven't looked at all the screenshots in that thread, but I suspect most of them involve Permas of some kind, or else some method of avoiding fights.

M @ T · Sep 29, 2009, 11:35 AM // 11:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desert Rose

Search this thread for screens.
Example: Deep 15min

What is your point exactly? How does this have got to with Warriors being balanced or not?

In Deep, they just tank, aggro, disrupt Kana with cold weapons and KD with YMLaD(and disrupt that damn spirit at the same time, but ye..). Before that, there was Shove. I have been doing Deep since forever and I've seen Sin and even Ranger tanks(well mostly for the Hall thing and whenever there is a Zquest) but still, this has nothing to do with this thread. Unless you are referring to PvE skills, which again has no place here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

A 15-minute The Deep? How was that done? I suspect a loophole of some kind (i.e. it avoids having to clear all enemies on the way there), considering how Shadow Meld is on the bar.

Haven't looked at all the screenshots in that thread, but I suspect most of them involve Permas of some kind, or else some method of avoiding fights.

In a way yes, basically theres 2 wars tanking room 1 and 2 while a mes mimics SS from a nec to kill in room1(room 2 war justs teles on the monks till kana gets in the party) while the BiP tanks in room 4. Then at the second room, after aggroing in and setting off the flower and killing, wars use SM while 3 more mimc it too, get on the tabs, cacnell it at the same time to get to room3. Then aggro, tank, kill untill the 3d kana where wars split. 1 war takes onis and kana while the other gets a hold of the onis in the other room untill the rest of the team gets along and kills them. Next room the wars split, one going forward tanking and killing and the other one tanking on the back untill they reunite in the big cave thing where they avoid Kana and move on. Then they go left(after a war teles and aggroes all foes on Kana and avoid him again)and 1 war at a time aggroes 2 groups and tanks while the other gets a hold on the other 2 untill everything is killed. Kill the last "small" kana and afterwards they SM, aggro and KD Kana twice, tele back(well it's cancelled anyway), corner him on the right hand side, hex him with spinal shivers, SS, Empathy, CoP(while wars use cold weapons) till he is dead and finally 1 war aggroes the rest of the foes on the chest to kill and get the reward.

??

Profit.

But like I said this has nothing to do with this thread.